Brian Henson didn’t work on The Dark Crystal. Though the son of Jim Henson worked at length with his father on films like Labyrinth, The Muppets Take Manhattan, and The Great Muppet Caper, Brian was in boarding school when Jim, Frank Oz, and the rest of the company made the legendary cult classic. Even so, who better than Henson, who went on to continue his father’s legacy, directing films like Muppet Treasure Island, The Muppet Christmas Carol, and producing shows like Farscape, to speak about the legacy of the film? Not many.
Which is exactly what we did. Last week, io9 hopped on a video call with the filmmaking legend to talk The Dark Crystal, in anticipation of the film’s 4K Fathom Entertainment screenings on October 12 and 13 (get tickets and more info here).
We spoke about his memories surrounding the film, the techniques it pioneers, how it would be done differently today, what’s next for the franchise, and so much more. So grab a glass of Essence, hug your favorite Gelfling, and check out our interview with Brian Henson.
Germain Lussier, io9: What are your memories of when your dad and the Henson Company were making Dark Crystal?
Brian Henson: Well, I was in boarding school at the time, which is why I can talk much more in depth about Labyrinth, because I was [there] right through the shooting. But with Dark Crystal, I was in boarding school when it was shooting, but obviously, my dad had been developing it for years before he shot it, and I can remember him doing tests even in our backyard in Westchester, New York. And he was clearly very intrigued. I mean, for him, that was the big reach. “Can I make an all-puppet movie? Can I make an all-fantasy movie where I’ve created the entire world and I’ve created all of the characters, and there’s nothing that the audience will recognize on screen?” I think that was really intriguing to him.
I actually remember the first time he met [designer] Brian Froud because I think I was on break from boarding school, so I was in England, and it was on The Muppet Show. I remember hanging out in The Muppet Show workshop, and this very unusual little man came into the shop, had a couple of sculptures and some drawings, and was waiting for my dad to finish on set to come back to the workshop. My dad was a huge fan of Brian’s work before he even met him, but I think once they met and talked through what he was trying to do, then that was when Brian Froud was glued to the project.
io9: What I love so much about the film and the franchise is how you lose the puppets and get sucked in by the mythology and the world-building. Is there any piece of lore that was created, or a character that you find most fascinating, beyond just the artistry of it?
Henson: Well, I guess sort of the simple concept of these god-like, powerful creatures, that then have been split into their dark sides and their light sides, and the impact that that stress and that conflict can create in this world. I find that very juicy, and something that you walk away with and you can look at our world and you can see reflections of that kind of happening all over the place. So yeah, the Mystics and the Skeksis, and then the UrSkek, which is what they were once they’re re-put back together. I guess those are probably what intrigue me the most. But again, this is as an audience. I didn’t work on it, so this is me watching it and appreciating it.
io9: Oh, totally. But you also obviously then, and since then, have become quite the expert on puppetry and films of this nature. So watching this film now, is there any character or scene that you watch and you still can’t believe that your father, Frank [Oz], and the whole team were able to pull it off?
Henson: Well, there are lots of them. Working with all those Skeksis in those crowded scenes. The scene where they’re all eating, that’s an amazing scene and unbelievably tough to accomplish. I mean, all the way through, what’s most impressive is that’s the first animatronic project that we did, where my dad said, “We’re not making puppets that people will immediately think, ‘Oh, those are puppets.'”
I mean, the delight of Kermit the Frog is, even though you know he’s ping pong balls and felt, you get carried on in his story as a frog, and that’s an incredible and fun journey to bring the audience on. But this idea of adding expressiveness and an organic element in the skin technology that he developed and all of the micro-mechanisms that he developed, to bring these characters to life as a sort of different tier of illusion, sort of much closer to a fully realized and perfect illusion—but also falling short of a perfect illusion, because a perfect illusion the audience doesn’t appreciate as the artwork it is. So it’s just that little bit below so that you do know, “Oh, these are puppets. These are hand-built puppets. These are hand-built sets. They’ve created an entire universe. This is amazing.”
These were all firsts for my dad that then continued through Dark Crystal, The Storyteller, Ninja Turtles, Dinosaurs, on my watch, Farscape, all of these sort of animatronic techniques continue to evolve after Dark Crystal, and were all started with Dark Crystal.
io9: I know we got the Netflix show, and I have a couple of questions about the show, but over the years, there have been lots of rumors about work and development on a direct theatrical sequel to Dark Crystal. How close did that ever come to becoming real?
Henson: You know what, I can’t really comment on development, but what I will say is we will continue to create within this universe, but we’ve looked at several potential tracks, and a movie might be one of them.
io9: Oh wow, cool. Now, like I said, we did get Age of Resistance, and I honestly think it’s one of the great pieces of fantasy ever. I loved it so much, and I think what I loved so much about it is it kind of recontexturized the original film. You kind of look at it in a different way after watching the show. Do you see it that way?
Henson: Well, when you’re making a movie, you’ve got 90 minutes to tell a story, and every scene has to serve that one story, even if you have B-lines and all of that. When you have 10 hours, that allows you to go much deeper, and it allows you to go on tangents, and it allows you to deepen the mythology and deepen the understanding of the world.
And yes, I think Age of Resistance did that brilliantly, and it was using the best of the techniques that we had in the 1980s, and combining that with the best techniques that we have now, rather than replacing the techniques of the ’80s. It was using those techniques and then enhancing, which I think was brilliantly executed by Louis Letterier.
io9: You kind of touched on it there, and I know we have the show, but if they were to make The Dark Crystal now just on its own, is there anything in particular that would be radically different? Or would it kind of be just kind of the updated puppetry used on the show?
Henson: Well, there are a whole lot of techniques that we used to use in the ’80s that you wouldn’t use today, because you can achieve the same result in a much less labor-intensive way. So there are a lot of techniques—hanging miniatures, trying to paint out rods and wires so that the audience can’t see them—those sorts of techniques you wouldn’t do anymore. There wouldn’t be a reason to. Today, the incredible Aughra’s chamber with those incredible moving pieces, I’m sure would have been in set extension today. That’s just what you would do. You would create it on the computer and let it play behind.
There would have been more expansive shots. You can see as you watch the movie, there’s a minimal use of actors in suits. There’s a minimal use of Jen full figure, minimal use of the Skeksis full figure, because it kind of looks a little too much like what it is, so you use less of it and you use puppets a lot more. Nowadays, with puppeteer removal, you can realize full figure shots of puppets. And I’m sure it would have been wider, more above, sweeping shots, which Louis added into the Age of Resistance, and I’m sure my dad would have done that if he could have.
io9: I also love how, if you watch the show and want to know what’s happening next, since there isn’t a second season, you have the movie to go to as a sequel. Do you view the movie as a sequel to the show?
Henson: No, it doesn’t have to be. Again, I can’t comment on development, other than to say, “Oh, no, you still have a lot of moving parts in the world of Dark Crystal that can create drama and conflict that can generate another story in that world.”
io9: Yeah, okay. A couple of years ago, I was talking to Louis about Fast X, and of course, brought up Age of Resistance, and I said, “It’s cancelled. The show’s not happening. What can you tell me about what was going to happen?” He goes, “I’m not going to say anything because I’m still holding out hope.” So you are still holding out hope that we get to come back to this world, I take it.
Henson: Oh, to come back to this world? For sure. Netflix, they were really great. They allowed the money to be spent that was needed to really do it right, and it’s a beautiful, beautiful piece, Age of Resistance. But you can understand, they’re a streamer. Their whole point is to get a whole bunch of subscribers that we wouldn’t otherwise get. So they knew by making Age of Resistance that we’re going to get all of the hardcore fantasy fans who weren’t subscribed would subscribe. Season two, it’s the same group. So I was disappointed, but not at all surprised that they didn’t want to drop that much money again for another season.
io9: I understand. When Dark Crystal came out, films like that, Labyrinth, Goonies, the darker family films were kind of the norm, and that continues through the ’90s. Now, they’ve kind of gone away. Where do you see those films, and also films largely driven by puppets, in today’s streaming world?
Henson: Well, you know, they’re always going to be unusual. It’s always going to be very original. Our development staff are always like, “Well, puppets are really hard to sell.” It’s like, “That’s nothing new.” Don’t believe that my dad could just do anything he wanted because he couldn’t. They’re very unusual pieces.
And where do they have a place in the future? Well, we saw a swing to too much CGI [in recent years]. Where the audiences became completely numb to helicopter shots over New York City being sucked into a volcano, and thousands of people falling in. We’ve all become numb to it. It was like, “Okay, it’s big. It’s computer-generated. Give us back the character stuff. Give us back a dynamic that actually happened on set between characters.” Because, I don’t know about you, when Marvel says, “Look at this scene that we did between seven of the most expensive actors in the world. We shot each one individually. They were never in the set together,” I’m going, “Yeah, you can tell! There’s no chemistry. They’re all dropping one-liners.”
So anyway, it’s just a lexicon to use. If you want to use puppetry and physical effects to realize your fantastical story, I think there’s always going to be a place for that.
io9: You obviously have gone on to make many great puppet films and films in general. What inspiration from Dark Crystal do you bring to your work as a filmmaker?
Henson: Well, I would say more directly from Storyteller. Dark Crystal again, before I was working, Dark Crystal started a whole lot of really cool techniques. And as a kid, I was always sort of the gadgety one in the family. So, like Great Muppet Caper, I did the marionette scenes and stuff like that. I wasn’t initially drawn to the more standard hand puppetry, but I liked the radio-controlled ones and the marionettes. But definitely the main influence of the Storyteller series was Dark Crystal. They are not funny first. They are dramatic first. And that series, I worked very much on all episodes of that. And that really was what probably most influenced me as a filmmaker. And with that was also Steve Barron who created the look and style of the Storyteller, and I’d say his influence too on me as a filmmaker. And it’s really clear.
The very first Muppet movie that I made, we had to say, “Don’t tell Disney it’s not a comedy.” The notes would always come back and say, “It could be funnier,” and it was like, “Don’t tell them it’s not a comedy, it’s a drama.” Every Muppet movie up until I made Christmas Carol [was] more formulaically comedic. Two laughs per page, hold for the laugh. And when I set out to do Christmas Carol, it was very much bringing what I love about Storyteller and combining it with the Muppets. And that could be something that I would feel confident that’s a creative angle that I could rise to. And that worked really neatly, you know, so you can see how it influenced me. And then Farscape and all the other things that I’ve made.
io9: Two more quick things, Brian, and thank you so much for your time today. First is the film is obviously coming back to theaters, which is why we’re speaking. Is there anything you’re particularly excited for people to see on screen when they watch Dark Crystal again?
Henson: The details. I mean, it’s really the details. You know, following the characters and following the story is very compelling. It’s a great film in that sense. But particularly if you know the film, to go see it on the big screen and to really let the sound bring you into that world, and then to really be able to see all of the incredible detail work. I mean, there are hundreds and hundreds of artists creating every shot in that movie. And you just can’t really appreciate all of that on a small screen. So when you go into a big screen and it’s so immersive and you can see everything so much clearer, you just basically get a whole lot more from the movie.
io9: Yes, I agree. And finally, the internet gives things a new life, right? Being online, you can find a community around a film much more easily than you could in the video store days. In terms of your films, does anything stand out where you couldn’t believe that it still has a life today?
Henson: Well, I’m just I’m thrilled. I’m thrilled that the things that I made that I tried to kind of make sort of timeless do stay timeless, and they do stay relevant. And Christmas Carol, Treasure Island, and all of Farscape are in that vein. I love it, but also as somebody who’s in the business, it’s a little bit of a curse. The fact that anybody who wants to watch television, they’re like, “Oh, tonight I’m going to watch something,” and they can choose something that’s new, or they can choose almost anything that’s been made in the last 70 years. And that makes it harder to make new stuff. But as a viewer, I really appreciate that. As a producer, not so much.
io9: I understand. Well, thank you for all the work that you, your family, and your company have done. I’m excited to see The Dark Crystal again, and hopefully, we get to see more of it in the future too.