GoKawiilToday on Decoder, I’m talking with Ronan Farrow, one of the biggest stars of investigative reporting working today. He broke the Harvey Weinstein story, among many, many others. And just last week, he and co-author Andrew Marantz published an incredible deep-dive feature in The New Yorker about OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, his trustworthiness, and the rise of OpenAI itself.
One note before we go any further here —The New Yorker published that story and Ronan and I had this conversation before we knew the full extent of the attacks on Altman’s home, so you won’t hear us talk about that directly. But just to say it, I think violence of any kind is unacceptable, these attacks on Sam were unacceptable, and that the kind of helplessness that people feel, which leads to this kind of violence, is itself unacceptable, and it’s worth a lot more scrutiny from both the industry and our political leaders. I hope that’s clear.
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All that said, there is a lot swirling around Altman that’s fair game for rigorous reporting — the kind of reporting Ronan and Andrew set out to do. Thanks to the popularity of ChatGPT, Altman has emerged as the most visible figurehead of the AI industry, having turned a once nonprofit research lab into an almost trillion-dollar private company in just a few years. But the myth of Altman is deeply conflicted, equally defined both by his obvious dealmaking ability and his reported tendency to… well, lie to everyone around him.
The story is over 17,000 words long, and it contains arguably the definitive account of what happened in 2023 when the OpenAI board of directors very suddenly fired Altman over his alleged lying, only for him to be almost instantly rehired. It’s also a deep dive into Altman’s personal life, his investments, his courting of Middle Eastern money, and his own reflections on his past behavior and character traits that led one source to say he was “unconstrained by the truth.” I really suggest you read the entire story; I suspect it will be referenced for many years to come.
Ronan talked to Altman many times over the 18 months he spent reporting this piece, and so one of the main things I was curious about was whether he sensed any change in Altman over that time. After all, a lot has happened in AI, in tech, and in the world over the past year and a half.
You’ll hear Ronan talk about that very directly, as well as his sense that people have become much more willing to talk about Altman’s ability to stretch the truth. People are starting to wonder, out loud and on the record, whether the behavior of people like Altman is concerning, not just for AI or tech but also for society’s collective future.
Okay: Ronan Farrow on Sam Altman, AI, and the truth. Here we go.
This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Ronan Farrow, you’re an investigative reporter and contributor to The New Yorker. Welcome to Decoder.
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