GoKawiilWhite House science advisor Michael Kratsios said that Moonshot, the Chinese company behind the Kimi K3, the largest available open-weight LLM, built its model by copying Anthropic’s Fable LLM while using chips that aren’t cleared for export to China.
“Large-scale, covert industrial distillation aimed at stealing proprietary U.S. technology and undermining American research is unacceptable,” Kratsios wrote, amid reported discussions about banning Chinese open-weight models that have roiled the AI sector. Moonshot did not respond to questions about its training process, and Kratsios did not share more details about the sources of his allegations.
Kratsios’ tweet echoed comments from Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent that “we are finding watermarks of our U.S. large language models on many of the Chinese models, and that that’s unacceptable.” It’s not clear what those watermarks consist of, and the Treasury Department did not respond to a query.
However, experts are skeptical that distillation—the process of querying an LLM to determine its inner workings and copy its capabilities—is responsible for the advanced capabilities that Kimi K3 displays.
“I don’t think you get a model this strong and this quickly on the heels of Fable doing strictly distillation,” Braden Hancock, a researcher at the Laude Institute and co-founder of Snorkel AI, told TechCrunch. “There’s just not even frankly time, right? Fable’s only been publicly available since July 1st. You can’t distill that much data, train a model, and release it in two weeks.”
“I’ve been of the opinion that distillation has becoming less and less impactful over time as the Chinese models get closer to the frontier and the training regime shifts to [reinforcement learning],” Nathan Lambert, an AI researcher at the Allen Institute for AI, said in a podcast released yesterday. “[I]f it were the case, everyone would be easily able to catch up to a GLM or to a K3 by using its data for distillation. But we have not, or we won’t see this, from supervised fine-tuning alone.”
Performing distillation requires a lab to systematically query its target model in order to generate data that can be used for post-training. Sometimes this explicitly involves asking the model to articulate its chain-of-thought to understand how it solves problems. Other times, the prompts and responses from a model are used to train a new model in a process called supervised fine-tuning, or SFT.
It’s this fine-tuning process that can result in a model ostensibly created by a third party claiming that it is Claude. Fine tuning is where, in Lambert’s view, the “model picks up its manners.”
But Lambert says that the benefits of SFT are becoming less important as models become more complex. To distill Fable-like capabilities would likely require reinforcement learning techniques. In many cases, that means having an agent of the larger model grade the smaller model’s responses, and adjusting based on the grade.
The more advanced techniques also require more significant infrastructure. Large reinforcement learning runs can require tens of millions of agents. Using a frontier lab’s API to do that “would be insanely expensive and potentially it would probably be a time bottleneck because these models are pretty slow and to be frank might not even give you a performance uplift.”
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